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Talk:Myanmar civil war (2021–present)

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About Taungoo

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Burmese here, and I think Taungoo is not in any sort of "Battle" Only in Laiketo There are small battles but I don't Think It isn't enough to have Toungoo displayed in the disputed square. 2400:AC40:627:31C0:1562:B6AD:54AE:B13F (talk) 05:11, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Taungoo isn't displayed as contested EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 21:58, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the "click here for an accurate, up to date map" part, which is actually neither accurate or up to date... UnJapóLliure (talk) 11:03, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi! I think a lot of the cities shown as contested with the PDFs are in areas where there is significant guerrilla activity in those townships - unfortunately I haven't had the time to revert all of those cities to junta control. However, cities shown as under rebel control are accurate, and the sources can be found in the linked articles. CrazyMagicPickle (talk) 15:56, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We should add a map change time lapse

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Similar to the time-lapses on the article about Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, a timelapse of the map day-by-day of the Myanmar civil war would help significantly in understanding the power dynamics and the general military situation of the war. Even if we don’t have enough data to make a timelapse of the entire war, a timelapse of one year, one operation, or even one month would be very helpful in understanding the conflict. LordOfWalruses (talk) 01:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do agree this could be very helpful. However, very few credible/good maps exist from before 2023 and Operation 1027. Most maps show ludicrous resistance holdings (I've seen several maps show the KIA controlling all of Kachin State, or CNA controlling Hakha in the early war) or very confusing overlapping territorial holdings. Good maps from pre-2021 are, to my knowledge, practically nonexistent. I don't have the skill nor ability to make a timelapse map, but I could help with research and dates, if someone does decide to make a map. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 07:06, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I made a video on the conflict: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8EPpUB6cUM, though it's obviously original research. Borysk5 (talk) 08:35, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even if the map began right after Operation 1027, that would be fine; anything to show step-by-step gains from then to now is welcome (though shorter time-jumps are optimal). LordOfWalruses (talk) 19:25, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested corrections of the 8 august update of the "Military situation as of 8 August 2024" map

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  • Thandwe and surroundings have been seized by the AA, Junta just holds the southernmost tip of Ngapali Beach and the Maung Shwe Lay Naval Base, both very south of the Thandwe Town.
  • ZRA doesn't hold any territory anymore in Chin State, they are entirely base in Aizawl State and effects some raids in Chinland State once in a while, but now they appear to have made peace.
  • TNLA have pushed already more south and west from Nawngkhio Town into Nawnghkio Township, reaching Shwe Mote Htaw and Wekwin
  • The road between Mogoke and Singu is entirely under PDF/TNLA control

Wikidoge04 (talk) 18:32, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a source on the ZRA claim? Not disputing it, just wondering. CrazyMagicPickle (talk) 20:05, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have a source for any of these- we can only add things to the map based on WP:RS per Wikipedia standards and policies. For Thandwe, I found enough for at least the town being taken- https://myanmar-now.org/en/news/myanmar-regime-bombards-rakhine-coastal-town-captured-by-aa/ EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 20:31, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First of all thank you for updating Thandwe.
- About the Mogok-Singu road in the last few Mizzima daily reports about the war: The 148th Light Infantry Battalion (where the Mogok-Singu road and the Takaung-Singu roads connect) was seized by the PDF as reported there https://eng.mizzima.com/2024/08/12/12740 while the town of Zayat Kwin was taken as reported there https://eng.mizzima.com/2024/08/13/12776
- About the TNLA expansion southof Nawnghkio there are those articles by The Irrawaddy https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/war-against-the-junta/myanmar-junta-reinforcements-attacked-as-tnla-advances-in-northern-shan.html reporting fights as far as Shwe Mote Htaw and https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/burma/myanmar-junta-troops-cornered-in-two-northern-shan-townships.html reporting TNLA into Mat Man Taw and Tang Hkam.
- About the ZRA I have no direct sources but my claim comes from the lack of reports of the ZRA still being active in Chin State while in this Wikipedia arcticle it has been reported that in early August CNF and ZRA leaders met in Aizawl, at ZRA HQ to discuss cooperation and peace between Chin EAOs. Wikidoge04 (talk) 22:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
List of corrections made as of 8/12 update:
EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 19:01, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Worth noting it looks like the KIA has reached the Irrawaddy River from Mabein as well: https://burma.irrawaddy.com/article/2024/08/01/388043.html, https://yktnews.com/2024/07/175563/. Not a Burmese speaker so I don't feel confident putting these in articles anywhere, but if you wanted to check that out it could be helpful. CrazyMagicPickle (talk) 21:31, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah Tagaung was taken a few hours ago but waiting for wikipedia-acceptable news sources to show. The Khit Thit article says Tagaung was completely taken- but Khit Thit is famously fast and loose with facts. The Irrawaddy article mentions the capture of the Tagaung Neekel factory without much more elaboration on where the factory is. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 13:38, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It does seem a little odd to me that Tagaung would fall so unceremoniously - you'd expect at least some reports of combat before the town falls. CrazyMagicPickle (talk) 16:26, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ZRA is still alive and well in Chin Region - see here. Borysk5 (talk) 06:21, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New section split?

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I was going to make a big section overhaul (yet again) after doing some copyediting. For example, splitting at the start of Operation 1027 part 2. However, I think that splitting the 2024 section will just make things more confusing not to mention that analyses have not really been keeping up with the July and August news. The Rakhine offensive and the Chin infighting largely aren't being affected by Operation 1027 Part 2 like they were during the original Operation 1027.

It is really long and I will do some copyediting to pare it down more, but I think that the best solution for now is to move some of the details elsewhere. However, I'm just having difficulty deciding on what's relevant enough for this main article. From som perspectives, pretty much everything in the continued Chin offensive could go to Chin theater or all of the MNDAA/TNLA details to go into Operation 1027 Part 2.

I'm still open to the idea of splitting the entire article into 2021-2023 and 2023-present as suggested a while back. However, again, not that many sources. So just putting a Talk out here to hear more thoughts EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 21:22, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, something needs to be done about the timeline bloat. I'd suggest leaving the broad strokes (i.e. capture of Mogok and Lashio) in this article, but perhaps taking the majority(?) of the other details and moving it to the theater/offensive specific articles. It would be nice to have some sort of quality "Timeline of the Myanmar civil war" article, but the one that exists is sorely lacking and I'm not sure it could even be rescued at this point. CrazyMagicPickle (talk) 16:29, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Map edits (August)

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August has passed with continued resistance gains! With this month's updates I've been trying to iron out mistakes and issues with the map. Honestly, all that I've found is that PDF control in Magway-Sagaing-Mandalay is likely far too overblown in some areas and too small in others.

Nitpicks, Suggestions, and Maps:

Indisputable Edits:

Disputable Edits:

Disputable "Disputed" Towns: (The issues I've found with the many of the towns supposedly being fought over in Magway-Sagaing-Mandalay region)
No fighting in past 4 months = X: This is more about a lack of sources to back it up, as I could not find sources about the towns labeled X.
(This part is a bit low quality as I was tired making it, also some of the settlements on this list are for the Template:detailed map. I'd suggest doing research if you're skeptical about one of my claims.)

IdioticAnarchist (talk) 15:56, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Re: labels; I sized them differently based on my perceived "relevance". Like Indian Insurgent Groups or NDA-K being at the same size as SAC might not work. I think written out is better and can standardise so that it's all un-abbreviated and at max 3 different sizes. (gonna switch out "Karenni resistance" for Karenni IEC.
When the first version of this map was made, we kind of arbitrarily drew lines where there was joint territorial control on the Thomas Linge map. We can do a pattern but it might map the map look even messier.
Your maps are helpful! But yes, to confirm to any other readers who back-verify, I've been going off the sources mentioned. I think Sagaing was something we didn't touch mostly because it didn't show up in headlines as much.
Re: DKBA/KNA in Payathonzu I believe last month we had news about KNLA essentially controlling the area, but it's a similar situation to Myawaddy pre-KNA seizure from what I've heard. But I don't remember where I read that.
I can likely make these changes Tuesday; more to follow. Just wanted to express my thoughts if any one else tackles it in the meantime. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 21:51, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most of those "disputed" dots are because of clashes in the township, not necessarily the township centre. Borysk5 (talk) 10:20, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They should still be changed though, considering its misinforming readers. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 00:18, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Things that I didn't change:
  • Re: Acronyms; I've left acronyms in where it would just be too long to fit otherwise, standardised everything to 14pt or 9pt font
  • Joint control IMO is more important to show when two factions who might fight otherwise have agreed to join control like in Mongyai, Tangyan and Kutkai. It's simpler/more communicative not to put joint control for groups that are working together (e.g. Singu is also TNLA to some extent, Lailenpi is AA joint to some extent). It's harder to have hard evidence of joint control in rural areas (like shown on Thomas' map for example). The joint controls are really more of a de jure question rather than a de facto overview of control. Especially since PDFs are, de facto, local units using the same name not an organised army. Even in the case for this month, the Maw Luu update would be more accurate to show ABSDF (https://myanmar-now.org/en/news/myanmar-army-launches-offensive-to-retake-maw-luu-from-resistance/) not PDF if we want to go into de jure control.
  • RCSS & SSPP definitely control more but unfortunately, user-generated content from weibo is not an RS for wikipedia. As such, I haven't changed the SSPP-RCSS control based on that map
  • Unfortunately Nathan Ruser doesn't publish those maps elsewhere as far as I can tell, user-generated content on twitter or google maps is not an RS for wikipedia. Maybe we can pressure ASPI to publish them.
  • Nyaungshwe news says 32 km from Nyaungshwe. Irresponsible reporting; it's nowhere near Inle Lake (also already represented by the PDF blob west of Inle)
  • Loihtwea already on the PNLA/PNA border
  • Some sources showing contestation in Sagaing towns: Tabayin contestation, Myinmu contestation
EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 20:34, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For clarity and future reference I've put the full list of changes I made below:
Other Rakhine changes were made by @Borysk5 and verified by me. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 20:35, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great map as usual! There's just a few things I noticed.
  • RCSS bases along Myanmar-Thailand border not shown (shown in the SHRF source, labeled as IDP camps but stated to be controlled by RCSS)
  • AA captured Ngapali beach and other junta holdout in Thandwe
  • Isn't this map based off of user-generated content from Twitter? Thomas Van Linge, to my knowledge, doesn't post his maps in any "formal" way (I could be wrong though). If the map is based of a Twitter map created by a journalist, why cant we update it using a Twitter map created by a journalist?
  • Moebye should be disputed
  • KIA in Nam Phat Kar not shown
Like I said, great map as usual! IdioticAnarchist (talk) 03:29, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ah yeah RCSS IDP control can be added
  • I thought that hold out was the naval base not the beach. Beach is taken
  • Fair point, though it was originally because there were so few maps. I can incorporate Ruser at least
  • source for Mobye?
  • Nam Phat Kar is shown as KIA control. Your imgur map is looking at Namkham, Namphat kar is further east
EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 16:18, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IdioticAnarchist (talk) 17:56, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Map updated with:
  • RCSS camps added on Wa-south border
  • AA Ngapali updated
  • Bhamo, Tabayin and Myingyan maps updated to correspond with Ruser sources
  • Mobye contested
EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 21:07, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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