Talk:Regency of Algiers

PRG Returns

@Nourerrahmane:, @Elinruby: A reviewer @Z1720: has left a set of comments we need to have a look at. scope_creep^Talk 08:54, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello scope, regarding the feedback I guess we can work on everything he listed except reducing the article to 9000 words, according to WP:articlesize, the article should probably be trimmed unless the scope of the article justifies otherwise. The current state of the article gives a comprehensive look about the regency of Algiers, i just cannot agree to remove what’s already summarised. Everything in the article is an important element in the regency history. Up to him to decide what’s not that important so we can discuss it. Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:48, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree. I think you should expand and then split into two main periods. No trimming on what is an extremely wide period of history. scope_creep^Talk 15:58, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@R Prazeres was against a split, since in fact the regency remained the same entity for 300 years with little modifications in its political system and foreign policy and even its relations with Constantinople unlike Muradid and Husainid Tunisia and Saadi then Alawi Morocco. The Regency history should be understood within the transformation of the Ottoman Empire as a military governed Imperial state that gradually broke loose from the Ottoman Empire because of divergent external intrests, without renoucing its formal affiliation to the latter. Splitting may confuse regular readers and make them beleive there are two seperated states when in fact it's the same autonomous military governement (Odjak of Algiers) that characterised the over 300 years old Ottoman Algeria.

That is why i beleive this is the best we can do regarding trimming and summarizing the article, we just cannot ignore the slave economy of Algiers, its government composition, relations with constantinople, foreign policy, wars in breif, soceity (urban and rural), culture, and the different views of specialized historians about it. Since this period of Algerian history was subject of many misconseptions. Nourerrahmane (talk) 16:38, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree, we should preserve some unity on the matter. One possibility that's radical but also fairly simple and common would be to transfer the large "History" section into a new History of the Regency of Algiers article; similar to what already exists, among other examples, for the Ottoman Empire (History of the Ottoman Empire) and to what we are currently implementing for the Mamluk Sultanate (History of the Mamluk Sultanate) due to similar concerns. That would mean condensing the history section here, but preserving all the work done so far in one still-unified history article that would be linked in a hatnote at the top of the section. R Prazeres (talk) 17:44, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Condensing the history section to a maximum and include it in Political status section ? that seems like a possible solution. This also means i can expand the history section (Article) a bit... I like this option. @Scope creep @Elinruby @Riad Salih @Mathglot @M.Bitton what do you guys think ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 18:15, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Minor clarification: to preserve clarity for readers, you still keep a "History" section in this option, but just condensed and linking to the full version in another article. Whether we should potentially also include the "Political status" section in this process could be discussed (e.g. you could choose to copy some of it into the new history article too, in order to provide the full context there as well). R Prazeres (talk) 18:20, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, i was thinking about this possibility, since both these sections are linked in this article, the Beylerbey period corresponds with the wars against Spain and Morocco, the Pashalik period is linked with Algerian opposition to the Capitualtions traties and the Franco-Ottoman Alliance,resulting in the weakness of the Pasha (Ottoman regent) and the rise of the military elites to power. The Agha and Dey periods are linked to the wars against France, England and the Dutch and the Maghrebi wars before stabilized relations were established. The decline of Algiers in the late period might need a paragraph about the political decay of Algiers in the History Article.

The history section here will be like a summary for the History Article. Nourerrahmane (talk) 18:40, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

This is very standard procedure at articles that grow to this size, and have subtopics that are easily worth an article on their own. Please see WP:Summary style for a description of this, and some recommendations of how to proceed. There are standard terms such as WP:G#Parent article and WP:G#Child article that’s are used for this. Mathglot (talk) 19:22, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I think splitting off the history section is the natural move and putting back summary blocks here to cover the main points of the history. I think it will be quite a substantial series of paragraphs, as 300 years to summarise but fixes the problem. It does seem the logical move with some scope to expand. scope_creep^Talk 09:05, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Nourerrahmane has gone ahead and created Draft:History of the Regency of Algiers. I'm getting the sense that there we are indeed all leaning towards this option? R Prazeres (talk) 17:37, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

And I agree with Scope Creep; the summary can still be substantial in order to be fair to the topic, but as long as it's comparatively much shorter, I think it'll go a long way to reducing article size. R Prazeres (talk) 17:39, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Summary is done. Thanks. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:55, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Please check the peer review for the additional changes Nourerrahmane (talk) 17:40, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Summary

Hi @Nourerrahmane: Are you planning to make a start on creating a summary of 300 years of history. scope_creep^Talk 18:18, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi Scope, i started doing this today, i'm planning to pix history and poltical status period, and how history itself influanced political status in short sentences. Nourerrahmane (talk) 18:31, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Why are you moving the political status to the new article? M.Bitton (talk) 18:48, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the political section needs to be moved. You need the history in its own article with the summary of history here to link with main article links, perhaps subsections links but nothing more than that. scope_creep^Talk 20:07, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Fine, thought i could merge the two sections here and summarize them, but i'll just summarize the history section alone, could use some help though. Nourerrahmane (talk) 22:41, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

It might leave this a bit empty. When Elinruby comes back, she might end up doing some of it. I'm up for it. scope_creep^Talk 23:37, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

OK! I should have looked here first before I wrote those questions on your talk page ;) so disregard those, and let me do some reading and catch up. At this time will be doing essential copyedits only. Elinruby (talk) 08:02, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Alright I did a fast pass through the History section. I did a little more than the strictly essential as I also got some repetition and awkward structure, but I stuck to doing the English only because I am not sure Nour is done. Overall summary is very good. I kind of agree that it could be combined with the political status section but only if he wants to do that in which case I will be happy to come back through. If not, I don't particularly want to rejuggle all that in my head at the moment, definitely not tonight anyway, and it sounds like there is some disagreement about whether to do it. I left comments about some content issues in the edit summaries. My biggest concern is that we have words that English speakers will find controversial in quotes -- "holy war" and "renegade" for example -- but unattributed. Please make super double extra sure that those exact words appear in the sources that follow them. If not they would be what we call scare quotes and we don't do that. If they are not in the source, they don't exactly need to be if they are not in quotes -- it is the quotes that say they are in the sources -- but as mentioned, english speakers may question them, so they should be attributed the way you did with "nest of pirates". Does that make sense? If not feel free to ask a question, Nour, this is really important for you to understand. I will check back in a day or two. Going to go tie up some other loose ends right now.

And by the way, you did a really good job on that summary. I am pretty sure I could not have done it so well after being down at the granular level for so long. Elinruby (talk) 10:45, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

There is a ton of references that are no longer used. I'll take then out today. Excellent copyedit. scope_creep^Talk 11:42, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

The History of the Regency of Algiers has now been reviewed by myself and is now in mainspace. It needs categories first. It also needs some on refs again. I'll do that this afterrnon. We will need to decide what we are doing with these further reading sections in both articles. Whether we do the work to put them into the article, probably ideal for FA or remove if they are not in use, or superceeded by another ref(s). scope_creep^Talk 11:53, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I added a few categories. I am sure the effort can be refined but at least it won't get tagged for that now. Please feel free to rework as seems good Elinruby (talk) 17:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Hey @Elinruby, I'm glad you're back, this article reached its current status thanks to your massive contribution, also, i'm sorry for sabotaging your work and the misinderstanding that happenned afterwards, since i was adding more content to the article, i didn't pay attention to your modifications, which might well had discouraged you to keep doing the same work over and over again, sorry for that.

I worked on the summary and i would like to thank you for the excellent copy edit and the feedback, i will work based on that of yours and scope and sure explain in the TP each additions i might do.

Speaking of the Political status section, after a previous disagreement, we agreed that this part doesn't need a summary, it's pretty important as it is to understand the political developpement of Algiers, also it's not nearly as big as the History section. The article is at 8500 words right now, which fixes by far the article length issue.

I'm glad i could add that fundamental pact into the article, it's basically the constitution of the regency of Algiers, you may want to read this page[1] Hamdan Khodja also mentions it as a "relic containing the rules of the regency, a charter". It's held by the Agha of the army who was the president of the diwan of Algiers.[2] Nourerrahmane (talk) 18:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Sabotage is too strong a word, because it implies you were doing it on purpose. I never thought that. Thank you for the apology however. We were all tired. I have about a million open tabs and a couple of RL problems I need to look into, but I am around if any questions arise about something I said in the edit summaries. If it is burdensome to switch back and forth between the talk and article pages the maximum amount of text allowed in an edit summary is actually quite large. Note that this may not be acceptable in all circumstances; we seem to have some mutual respect going on here and in a more hostile environment communicating in edit summaries only might get you into trouble. Just a word of warning as an aside. But for the next round of work here I think that would be fine; at least it would be fine with me. You might want to add those references about the pact into the section. The fact that there was a constitution is actually very important. Elinruby (talk) 10:52, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Worked on the controversial terms you listed by givin explanatory additions, and added refs and some informations about the Agha-president of the diwan and the charter of Algiers (Fundamental pact). Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

yeah I saw what you did for "renegade": exactly. That is what I meant. I may come back with a quibble about the reference or the wording but yes, that was great. Really. Not really available at the moment but wanted to say that.

So are we reaching a stable version, it looks like? I will be gone all day today but could do a final edit pretty soon. One comment that I don't think I flagged before: One of the alts said someone was dressed in "an oriental outfit". The word "oriental" can be offensive if applied to Chinese or Korean people, for whom it is recommended to use "Asian" instead. I am less sure about its use for Turkey and the Middle East, but on the other hand I don't think I have ever seen the word used about that area in English, and even in French I think it might be coming from some of the 19th-century French sources, which as we have discussed are pretty chauvinistic. That alt should say the man is wearing robes, or if it is important that the clothing is Turkish or what it is exactly (I don't quite remember but think not) we should use a more specific term. I have to go like right now, but can fix that in the copy edit -- I just am trying to prevent the term from reappearing elsewhere in the text. This article is currently my top priority if it is ready for a final copyedit. Elinruby (talk) 15:01, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Further reading

Evening Folks!! @Elinruby: @Nourerrahmane: I've taken out the references that are not used in each article. I guess there will be some cross-referencing that will need to be done to remove those refs that were used in the main article and found they're way into the history article and vice-versa. That will remove some of them but there is that expectation for FA that those references will be used, if applicable. I will do the cross-ref now, for example Bachelot 2012 is used in the Regency article but is in FR in the history article, so can be removed. scope_creep^Talk 17:58, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

There seems to be one ref: Allioui, 2006 that is both fr sections but is not used in either. @Nourerrahmane: can you check it and see if there is anything in it that needs added in somehow. I've removed every other ref that used, so the fr sections have now shrunk. scope_creep^Talk 20:06, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Alt tags

• History of the Regency of Algiers has no alt tags on the images. scope_creep^Talk 19:22, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Ref 142 needs looked at

PRG has more comments for action. One of them, fixing the Brill ref which has incorrect author info, which I've partially fixed. Ref 142 which is on page 947 isn't in the first volume so needs a new ref entry in the bib. Page number in vol 1 only go up to 565. What volume number was that ref taken from? scope_creep^Talk 22:12, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Hey scope! thanks for all your work! the ref is actually vol 2 p 947 [3] Nourerrahmane (talk) 22:23, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Morning @Nourerrahmane: The history article also has the same problem. Can you check for the brill ref. I think a couple are good around page 268 )or so), but the rest are not. I'll create a ref for this later and the history article. scope_creep^Talk 09:02, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Morining scope, i'll work on it. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:18, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

History of the Regency of Algiers

I'm assuming the history article will be reviewed for GA/FA at the same time, as its two parts of the same article. Taking cognizance of that, the lede needs some work. scope_creep^Talk 08:59, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Done, however i dunno how to fix to multitarget issue. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:01, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Used old refs

Old refs from fr section

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