(Note, this refers to the 4th nomination from April 28, 2024.) The nomination for deleting the article made a claim of WP:NOTDIRECTORY but didn't include any explanations to back up the claim (and multiple previous nominations already rejected that claim). This goes against WP:AFDFORMAT: "explain how the article meets/violates policy rather than merely stating that it meets/violates the policy." In addition, most of the comments were a combination of WP:PERNOM and/or WP:JUSTAPOLICY. This also goes against WP:AFDFORMAT: "The debate is not a vote; please do not make recommendations on the course of action to be taken that are not sustained by arguments." Of the few arguments that were made, most referred erroneously to digital IMAX theaters, which weren't even part of the list and were actually called out in the intro paragraph as being excluded from the article (making it clear the commenters didn't even know what was in it). Therefore, the deletion was based on a flawed nomination, flawed votes, no real debate, and arguments against something that wasn't even in the article. Which means per Wikipedia's own guidelines, there was no solid basis for deleting it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonovitch (talk • contribs) 00:58, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, sorry I forgot to sign -- thanks for adding that. Jonovitch (talk) 09:24, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse There was a very clear consensus to delete there, and this couldn't have been closed any other way. * Pppery *it has begun... 01:32, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The consensus was entirely WP:PERNOM and/or WP:JUSTAPOLICY, which clearly go against Wikipedia's guidelines. Should those votes not be discarded? And if they are discarded, what's left? I'm sincerely asking; I don't understand why a decision can be made based on those votes. Jonovitch (talk) 09:24, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@OwenX: backed up that decision with this one, and now this decision is being backed up with that one -- circular logic. And both of those decisions ignored the multiple previous "keep" decisions where the same arguments were repeatedly considered and rejected. Why were the many previous "keep" decisions ignored while the single "delete" decision gets reinforced (even though it's full of problematic WP:PERNOM and WP:JUSTAPOLICY votes)?
I understand some people don't want this article to exist, but I and others did provide several policy-based reasons why it meets Wikipedia requirements and guidelines. Here are a few of them again:
1. WP:NOTDATABASE says, "To provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources." The article's intro paragraphs provided context for the data in the list, plus explanations and definitions, with references to independent sources.
2. WP:N says, "A topic is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list when it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." IMAX 15/70 film theaters have received significant coverage in reliable, independent sources for decades (also the new laser variants more recently). In the last year they have become even more notable, due to Oppenheimer and Dune 2. Countless news stories across the globe pointed out how these theaters are notable because of their technical superiority to regular theaters, immense size, unique aspect ratio, and rarity. The many citations in the article were from verifiable sources -- some from news articles, some from theater websites (for raw data purposes, not editorializing), and only a very small handful from the IMAX corporate website (again for data, not editorializing).
3. WP:USEFUL says, "a cogent argument must be more specific: who is the content useful for, and why?" The different types of "IMAX" theaters (and the IMAX Corporation's lack of clarity) leads to a lot of confusion among moviegoers. The article was useful because it helped confused moviegoers understand the differences between the types of IMAX-branded theaters, it showed them the technical specifications of why one type of IMAX is superior (or inferior) than another, and it included this information in a list sorted by geography, so moviegoers could find which (if any) of the superior theater formats was near them.
4. WP:LISTPURP says, "The list may be a valuable information source. This is particularly the case for a structured list." Point 3 above explained why/how the structured list was a valuable source of information for moviegoers.
5. WP:NLIST says, "a list topic is considered notable ... if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources." The topic of IMAX 15/70 film theaters (and the newer laser formats) have been discussed in many independent news articles; a couple of specific examples were linked to in the other discussion (but apparently were ignored). Because the group is notable, the list of items in that group is valid.
6. Whenever WP:NOTDIRECTORY came up, commenters asked the person who made the claim to explain how the article fit that guideline. Nobody was able to do so. But commenters repeatedly explained how the article isn't a directory. The arguments for deletion based on this point (which are most of them) seem to be a case of proof by assertion.
(Note, none of the above falls under WP:MUSTBESOURCES -- there are independent sources. The article cited many of them, and more could have been added if it hadn't been deleted. Because there are plenty in existence to choose from, this falls under WP:NEXIST.)
Sincere question: The votes to delete were WP:PERNOM and WP:JUSTAPOLICY, which go against the policies and guidelines. The article itself did meet the policies and guidelines. So what else is needed? Or what am I missing? Jonovitch (talk) 09:24, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What's needed is for this DRV to be closed as out of process because you have erroneously nominated the wrong deletion for discussion, when you should have nominated the deletion from the last AfD (which is not the AfD here discussed), as it is the only close which can actionably be challeged. Nothing can happen out of this DRV, it's a big nothing. —Alalch E. 19:17, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I may be partially to blame for this – at the most recent AfD, I suggested that DRV was more appropriate than recreating the article under a new title. Sorry if that led to confusion over which AfD should be the basis of a deletion review. RunningTiger123 (talk) 20:11, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse The close was correct and reflected consensus. I haven't seen the article, but I do think the deletion rationale is potentially wrong - I think it meets WP:LISTN after a very cursory before search, and I'm not sure WP:NOTDIRECTORY actually applies if it could be fixed with contextual editing - but I can't fault the deletion discussion here. SportingFlyerT·C 04:06, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would normally temp undelete, but it had so many revisions it needed a steward to delete, so I'm not sure it's possible. If someone else knows that it is, please do so. StarMississippi 12:43, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't need a steward to undelete, but you do need to repeatedly partial undelete it in chunks of only a couple hundred revisions at once or it times out. The real problem is that it would need a steward to delete again once it exceeded 5000 undeleted revisions. It's a significant hassle on both ends. —Cryptic 14:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse as the only possible outcome. (involved as the closing admin of the subsequent AfD for essentially the same article.) A closing admin may discard a !vote when a participant relies on an irrelevant policy or guideline, e.g., "Delete per IDONTLIKEIT". The closer may not discard an otherwise valid !vote when they disagree on a factual assessment, which is what the appellant is asking us to do here. WP:NOTDIRECTORY is, prima facie, a relevant policy. Whether the article falls under this category or not is a question of fact, where the closing admin may not overrule a unanimous consensus with a supervote.
I also see no merit in appealing an AfD that was already relitigated the very next day, under a slightly different title, in a failed attempt to game the system. The appellant, who participated in the subsequent AfD ("AfD5"), is a "sleeper account", created in 2008 but with a total of nine edits before being awakened by a Reddit call to arms.
Contrary to the appellant's claim, I did not "back up" AfD5 based on the closing of AfD4. I mentioned AfD4 in my lengthy closing rationale, but AfD5 was closed on its own merits. Similarly, Star Mississippi isn't backing up her decision with the result of the subsequent AfD, but merely pointing out the futility of appealing a decision that has already been relitigated. There is no "circular logic" here, just a clear, consistent, correct application of AfD policy. Owen×☎ 11:17, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry about the back and forth, I know this has gotten messy. I'm trying to raise the right questions in the right place.
1. Here and in the other discussion, I showed how the votes of WP:PERNOM and WP:JUSTAPOLICY clearly violated the guidelines in WP:AFDFORMAT, and how the votes introduced arguments that were irrelevant to the article being debated. Because of this, per your explanation above, shouldn't those votes have been discarded by the closing admin? I have yet to hear an explanation why those votes were valid. So I ask again sincerely, if they went against policy, why were they not discarded?
2. Additionally, I and others asked many times how the article fails under WP:NOTDIRECTORY, the primary claim in both discussions. That question was never answered; the claims were only repeated (which goes against WP:JUSTAPOLICY). I and others rebutted those (and other) claims using Wikipedia's own guidelines to back up the rebuttals. Further, we used the policies and guidelines to positively show how the article did meet requirements (see the direct quotes from the policies above). So how was the article just a directory? And why were the rebuttals and evidences ignored, even though they were based on Wikipedia's policies and guidelines?
Both of the above issues appear to be proof by assertion, "in which a proposition is repeatedly restated regardless of contradiction and refutation" and asserted as fact "solely due to a lack of challengers." But the claims were challenged and refuted using Wikipedia's own policies and guidelines. What more is needed?
Lastly, attempts to dismiss arguments from a "sleeper account" (or other people making arguments, regardless of where they came from) goes against WP:ATTP. Please speak to the arguments and questions regarding the policies and guidelines, not to the people making the arguments. Thank you! Jonovitch (talk) 18:14, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but you did not show those !votes were irrelevant to the article being debated". You are asserting that they are incorrect. The two are very different. As I explained above, one is a question of policy, while the other is a question of fact. It is perfectly valid to argue whether or not the article met WP:NOTDIRECTORY. Both for- and against- arguments are relevant to a discussion about an article that at least at first blush looks like little more than a directory. Neither argument may be discarded in such a discussion. The WP:PERNOM and WP:JUSTAPOLICY arguments you keep bringing up are a part of an essay, not a policy. They provide excellent advice on how to conduct oneself in an AfD, but you cannot use this essay to demand an otherwise valid !vote be discarded. You have yet to present a policy-based justification for discarding all !votes in that AfD.
I join you in lamenting that no one made the effort to educate you and others on why the article fails under WP:NOTDIRECTORY, but that is not the purpose of AfD. Had you and your fellow Keep voters been here for the bona fide purpose of writing an encyclopedia, I'm sure you would have found the answer by now. Alas, it is very clear from your contribution history that you are not here to write an encyclopedia, which is why I brought up your record as a dormant, now-single-purpose account. Wikipedia has a low tolerance for people trying to use it as a free web hosting service, not to mention for people engaging in off-wiki canvassing to sway the result of discussions. If you have a legal background, I'm sure you're familiar with the unclean hands doctrine. This type of behaviour will make it very difficult to find a sympathetic ear here. At this point, you are not only wasting everyone's time in an appeal that has already been identified as moot, but you are also squandering the little goodwill we may have had towards your cause. Owen×☎ 19:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're mixing up my words, and making up a few others. To clarify, I showed how most of the votes were WP:PERNOM and WP:JUSTAPOLICY. In addition to that, I pointed out that three of the nine votes referred to digital IMAX venues (which were never part of the list!) -- those were the irrelevant arguments I referred to. I then asked (not demanded) why the votes weren't discarded, because you stated above that a closing admin may discard votes that don't align with policies and guidelines.
It's true, I'm not a regular contributor to Wikipedia (though I have been registered for a long time and I use the site frequently). The few edits I've made were mostly to practice how to do it, and I've been trying to follow the directions I've been given and go through the correct processes here. So while I might not get everything right, you're completely wrong about me not being here to write an encyclopedia. WP:NOTNOTHERE
I learned about this article's deletion by chance. I'm not a regular contributor to Reddit and only a sporadic visitor there. When I happened to see the post, I ignored it at first and didn't read it until a few days later. Then I took the time to understand the situation here before finally joining the discussion, doing my best to follow the rules, and pointing out where it appeared others failed to do so.
My motivation is simply this: I've used the information in this article in the past, I found it very helpful to research the technical differences and geographic locations of the different types of IMAX venues, and I'd like to help others who have the same questions and confusion that I did.
As a side note, I've been critical of IMAX as often as I have praised it. I'm not a fanboy, and I don't get anything out of this. I ask you again to refrain from speculating about my (and others') intentions. I'm trying to play by the rules here, and your hostility isn't helping. WP:AGFJonovitch (talk) 06:20, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Procedural close as moot. The challenged deletion is not from the last AfD. The last AfD was Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of IMAX venues With 15/70 or laser projectors. When there has been a later AfD for a given topic, DRV can not produce any outcome other than a declaratory outcome. For this reason, there is no chance of success, as overturning the close of the here challenged DRV can not result in undeletion of the page—being that the outcome of the later AfD is determinative and can not be bypassed—and therefore, the DRV should be closed.—Alalch E. 17:18, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest, when viewing both AfDs together, there's not really a consensus to delete. Simply endorsing the close here is going to lead to an awkward result, as even though it looks like the community has definitively said we shouldn't have an article on this topic in the second-to-last AfD, the most recent AfD is a clear "no consensus," even with the canvassing, as clearly non-canvassed participants have noted the NOTDIR reason doesn't necessarily apply (and I could make a valid LISTN argument had I cared enough to participate, as was done in the second discussion). I'd argue there needs to be some sort of path to allow something on this topic to get back to mainspace. SportingFlyerT·C 20:13, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think part of the issue is the group that came from Reddit - no judgement, just stating the origin - wants this to be in index of either kind of IMAX and seem to be under the impression that more "X Theatre has an Imax" helps, when we know that coverage of the kind of IMAX and maybe why they're predominant would be better to make the case. Aside from WP:ITSUSEFUL, I'm not actually sure this list as constructed is useful to anyone because neither the article under discussion at AfD4 nor 5 wasn navigable nor well organized. It probably needs to be chunked and re scoped. I think this could be incubated in draft space if @Jonovitch or others are willing to. That unfortunately does not seem clear right now. StarMississippi 02:02, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm totally willing to rework the list, since I agree it was a bit unwieldy in it's most recent format. I also agree that adding more IMAX types/venues doesn't necessarily improve the list, and can actually reduce its value. Here are my thoughts, if I were to rebuild it (whether from scratch or from a restored article):
I'd definitely include the Grand Theater format venues (15/70 film and dual 4K laser, in 1.43:1 aspect ratio on massive screens, often standalone locations). These are the rarest and most notable.
I lean toward including IMAX Dome theaters, since those are also rare and unique.
I'd of course exclude the crappy digital "LieIMAX" venues (dual 2K digital xenon projectors in multiplexes).
If only to avoid the arguments that the list is just a directory, I kind of lean toward excluding the "IMAX with Laser" venues (single 4K laser projectors in multiplexes). I might experiment with putting these in a separate section, so as to more easily distinguish between the types of venues.
I'd of course include an intro with definitions and an explanation of which types of venues are included and excluded.
I'd experiment with listing the venues first by type (15/70 film, dual 4K laser, dome, maybe single laser?) and then by geography.
I'm not sure what the next step for this would be, and I might need some help with Wikipedia's editing syntax (I'm learning as I go), but I'm definitely willing to try this route.
For what it's worth, as I stated elsewhere I'm not an IMAX fanboy (and I only sporadically visit Reddit), I just found this article to be very helpful and I'd like to help others.
What are your recommendations? What's the next step? What pitfalls should I avoid and what concerns should I address? Jonovitch (talk) 07:20, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think all of that makes sense @Jonovitch. I'm sure there are sources that explain why Grand are the most notable and preferred as they sound like something that would be covered in a journal. The journal may or may not have independence issues, but would be 100% better than endless links to XYZ's imax location. Re I might experiment with putting these in a separate section, is essentially what I thought re:scoping & chunking it. Because if it's not manageable, it's not going to be particularly useful. Now that DRVs are open on both AfD4 & 5, I'd wait for them to close and would support draftification. How that happens with the large revisions is another story StarMississippi 13:03, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As the nom on AfD4 and a delete voter on 5, I also support this plan and would support draftification once the DRVs close. Let'srun (talk) 15:55, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, from my research when I !voted at AfD 5, I think only the 15/70 theaters are clearly covered as a group (thanks mainly to their coverage in the wake of Oppenheimer's release). I don't see enough coverage of 4K laser locations (single or double) to justify inclusion – there is basic coverage about the systems that could go in a different article, but not coverage of the group of locations that would form a list. From a quick look for IMAX Dome info, I think it's in the same boat as the 4K laser locations ("rare and unique" ≠ inherently notable). I would prefer to see any stricter list started as a new draft as opposed to undeleting the old list and cutting it down; this would solidify the distinction between the old, overly broad list and the new list. RunningTiger123 (talk) 19:38, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. Editors !voting "PERNOM" etc. is not a policy-based reason to reject those !votes. The canvassing and SPA activity, on the other hand, are valid reasons to reject certain !votes. JoelleJay (talk) 20:09, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse, although I can’t find a reason why it wasn’t redirected to IMAX#Theatres. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:03, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse, concurring with the closing statement of User:OwenX, that the strength of arguments for Delete was far stronger than the strength of arguments for Keep:
I thank User:Hobit for requesting temp undeletion, and User:Cryptic for temp undeleting.
I concur with User:Hobit that this is a useful list, although it is not an encyclopedic list. It should be hosted somewhere, but not in Wikipedia. It may be kept in draft space, but there should be no guarantee that it can be promoted back to article space via AFC or otherwise.
DRV is not a conduct forum. That is, DRV is not ANI round 0. However, there are conduct violations going on, including in these lists, in AFD, and in DRV. The creation of this article with this disambiguated title was disruptive, an intentional attempt to game the system, and the rule against gaming the system identifies it as disruptive editing. Any future conduct violations should be taken to ANI. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:43, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Sangerpedia – Speedy deletion overturned and listed at RfD. Daniel (talk) 20:54, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Initially deleted as an WP:R3, despite clearly not being eligible under that criterion, subsequently undeleted and redeleted under WP:G6 which it likewise does not qualify for, a rather clear WP:!G6 actually. As an Template:R without mention its retention at RFD is highly questionable, but the community should have the chance to weigh in on this one. Deleting admin has not responded to the request for undeletion in some time, as such I am bringing this here. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:4CF1:7456:BBC:F8B5 (talk) 20:41, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and send to RfD. I correctly guessed who the deleting admin was before I clicked the link. Her out-of-process speedy deletions, as well as her brusque, dismissive responses to being questioned about them, make regular appearances here at DRV. G6 is not a catch-all "I think this doesn't belong here and I have a Delete button" tool. Owen×☎ 21:18, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy overturn as we don't need 7 days here, just the 7 days at RfD, which is where it belongs as this is clearly not uncontested. Disappointed with the deleting admin's response to the IP's reasonable request. StarMississippi 21:25, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Questions - What was this a redirect to? But why isn't the appellant logging on? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:24, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dynamic IP who frequently participates around here if this is the editor I think it is. Citizendium, to which it pointed for 16 years. StarMississippi 21:27, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because I don't have an account. I would not call myself a DRV regular by any stretch, but when admins refuse to overturn improper speedy deletions after being given reasonable time I list therm here per procedure. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:4CF1:7456:BBC:F8B5 (talk) 21:36, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy overturn another out-of-process deletion. Support sending to RfD procedurally from DRV.—Alalch E. 21:30, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Undelete all the history and send to RfD. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:10, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Undelete and send to RfD as above. And are we really seeing a deletion by Deb here again? They've shown up here far more than they should. * Pppery *it has begun... 01:32, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy overturn grossly out of process G6. Send to RFD if desired. FrankAnchor 02:33, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I don't see a statement by the closer, User:Deb (but she has been properly notified). Robert McClenon (talk) 15:16, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I think the redirect should be restored and kept, because I think that the subject should be known as that. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:16, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Send to RfD I might have done this myself. Probably worth updating what G6 is not to make it clear G6 shouldn't be used for this. SportingFlyerT·C 20:14, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The essay WP:!G6 already includes a bullet point "Redirects asserted to be implausible that don't technically meet the R3 criteria". But I don't think these people care at all. * Pppery *it has begun... 03:01, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and list at RfD. Yet another example of G6 being grossly incorrectly applied. We should have deprecated the criterion years ago and replaced it with a set of narrowly-focused, objectively written criteria that are much less tempting to abuse. Thryduulf (talk) 12:25, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Caroline Tran – Closure endorsed. A draft (prepared by Cunard, who is described by Hobit below as "a Wikipedia treasure" - a sentiment it is hard to disagree with) was proposed late in the piece, and didn't receive explicit support to move to articlespace as a DRV action. However, there is no explicit opposition to it being moved to articlespace either, so any editor is free to move it to articlespace editorially at their own discretion. From there, if any other editor still thinks it doesn't meet GNG, they are welcome to nominate at AfD. (CD G4 is highly unlikely to apply given the dramatic changes to the article in the drafting stage.) Daniel (talk) 20:51, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
afds are not popularity contests, they are not headcounts. they are based on the strength of policy based arguments. Yes the headcount here is very clearly on the delete side but a small local call does override long term wider policies. The first three delete comments here were based on the fact that this was an unreferenced blp. Once references were provided these three become moot. they are no longer valid and closers should dismiss them. After sources were provided we saw two delete comments. The first was a boilerplate comment from Tim the made a vague wave at wp:sirs which is a policy related to companies which is clearly irrelevant here. The next from Bearian was a vague wave at common outcomes where common outcomes do not actually mention nationally broadcast radio hosts. Neither is a valid policy based call for deletion and neither make any relevant comments on the sources provided. Since no one was made a relevant counter to the presentation of relevant sources claiming GNG pass there is no way this should have been closed delete. Uncomfortable based on headcount then relist asking for discussion of sources or close no consensus. Instead we have a close based on guessing what the previous voters may have thought if they had come back for another look [[1]]. Sorry but afds are not decided on what someone might have had in mind but did not say. They are not decided by guesses by closers. Lets actually look at evidence provided during discussions instead of ignoring the fundamental idea of afDs were the D stands for discussion not for dismissing sources without analysis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Duffbeerforme (talk • contribs) t12:55, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse close per essentially User_talk:OwenX#Caroline_Tran_afd. The earlier comments don't become moot just because Duff declares them so. Editors could have returned to revise them following Duff's !vote, but they didn't. If you think you have a case, request the draft and improve it with the sources. It wouldn't be a G4 and you could bring it back to mainspace StarMississippi 16:31, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse largely per StarMississipi. Adding that not only did any of the “delete” voters not change their mind after sources were presented, but two additional “delete” votes came in after the fact with one referencing the sources as not meeting WP:SIRS. Allow restoration as draft if Duff or any other user wants to improve upon it. FrankAnchor 16:45, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse discussion was clearly to delete, and the sources presented don't make me think an obvious mistake was made. SportingFlyerT·C 18:51, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse as clearly the best closure even based on the case made by the appellant:
Of the five Delete voters, two did their own searches, and two voted after the appellant provided their sources. Even if the one who said that it was an unsourced BLP (presumably because it was an unsourced BLP) is discounted, that leaves four. There was no need to Relist. There was a consensus to delete either after the appellant's sources or after searching for sources.
Temporary undeletion is not necessary, but I would be interested in seeing a temporary undeletion. I might want to do a source analysis, but it isn't necessary.
I am sure that occasionally, maybe very occasionally, when an appellant says that AFD is not a vote count, the appellant really has the stronger case than the majority of participants. However, when I see an appellant say that AFD is not a vote count, it usually means that they are saying that they wanted the closer to supervote.
There was no need to Relist, and we would be overturning a Keep. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:08, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Request temp undeletion. Was the nom misleading with “completely unsourced”? —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:15, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. Allow userfication/draftification and recommend attempts to overcome the deletion reasons follow advice at WP:THREE. The sources listed in the AfD are worth looking at.
The discussion could have been relisted for detailed examination of new sources, but deletion was well within admin discretion.
I note that the article began as a 2004 stub, with a source. I also not that the article content did not contain information from the new sources listed at AfD, that the article never had good sources, and that WP:TNT applies in my opinion. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:52, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment to User:SmokeyJoe - Good question. The nominator was correct in saying that the article was completely unsourced. The external link to the subject's web site was removed at the end of December 2023 as a dead link. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:16, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment to appellant - The references that you have added are malformed, and cannot be viewed by reviewers. So the version that you had updated still did not satisfy BLP guidelines. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:16, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The references were not malformed. Offline sources are acceptable and usage of them does not violate the BLP policy. From Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Definition of published, "It is convenient, but by no means necessary, for the archived copy to be accessible via the Internet." Cunard (talk) 08:13, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Get real Robert. They are not malformed. duffbeerforme (talk) 23:54, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I am trying unsuccessfully to have discussion at the DRV talk page about Speedy Closes for troublesome nominations. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:18, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a troublesome nomination. If the proposal on the DRV talk page would have speedy closed this DRV, I strongly oppose the proposal. Cunard (talk) 08:13, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:G4 excludes "pages to which the reason for the deletion no longer applies". Guidelines on the notability of companies and organisations (WP:SIRS) are not relevant, user essays (WP:THREE) are not guidelines, and there is no requirement for sources to be linked or available online. Without access to the sources I don't know if they are enough, but the positions of the inline citations within the text suggests they don't verify much, and would not be enough for an article; when the article was deleted it still had no source cited for most of the content. Peter James (talk) 09:49, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse Peter James is quite correct. Even so, I did attempt to find these sources online without success. I know that DRV is not a second pass at AFD, but even so I did cast a wider net and went looking for other sources. Searches are complicated by the fact there is a Caroline Tran (born ~1986) in Australia involved in the fashion industry. What I did find are primary sources such as this. Maybe there is enough material out there on which to base a BLP, but I'm not finding it. Duffbeerforme, I think your best bet is to have this draftified, and work on it over time, trying to establish better sourcing to support this BLP. The article being deleted at AFD doesn't mean it's never going to exist. There's no deadline here. --Hammersoft (talk) 11:46, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse per Star Mississippi.—Alalch E. 17:22, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The sources listed appear to not be online (or at least I can't find them). That makes it difficult to evaluate the arguments. I'm good with this moving to draft and if the nom can get copies of the sources online (imgur, whatever) and link to them so we can evaluate the sources, I can imagine this being over the GNG bar. Hobit (talk) 23:25, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Defective AfD discussion. The AfD discussion was defective. Two of the "delete" participants wrote "this article has ZERO sources" and "unreferenced BLP". Once Duffbeerforme provided sources and added them to the article, these two comments became obsolete. It became clearly false that the article had zero sources and was an unreferenced BLP. For those editors' opinions to be taken into account, they must revisit the discussion to say why the sources are insufficient.
The closing admin wrote, "I know for a fact that several of the participants there follow AfDs in which they !voted, and will respond or change their !vote if they see compelling evidence to do so. So your assumption that the four participants before your !vote didn't see it is likely baseless." I disagree with this statement. It is possible that the "delete" editors forgot to watchlist the AfD so never saw the new sources (I sometimes make this mistake in AfDs I participate in). It is also possible that they did see the new sources but did not have time to evaluate them. If they saw the sources and considered them insufficient, for their opinion to not be considered obsolete, they must respond in the AfD to explain why. This is basic courtesy to a good faith established editor who spend substantial time looking for sources.
The last two "delete" comments are not policy-based:
The first comment cites the guideline on the notability of companies and organisations (WP:SIRS), which is irrelevant to a biography. More importantly, the editor did not explain why Duffbeerforme's sources are not independent, reliable, or significant. This comment should be given very little weight.
The second comment said "Besides no allegation of notability, we routinely delete articles about non-drive time radio DJs". This is just the editor's personal opinion about how similar subjects have been treated. This is not a policy-based rationale as it does not discuss why Duffbeerforme's sources are insufficient. This opinion should be given very little weight.
None of the AfD participants explained why Duffbeerforme's sources were not independent, reliable, or significant, making this a defective AfD discussion. The best course of action would have to been to relist the discussion and ask the four previous "delete" participants to review the new sources. Cunard (talk) 08:13, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
endorse deletion and move draft to article space Close was okay, though NC or a relist might have also been good choices. That said, Cunard's draft looks much much better. Sources 1, 3, and 4 meet WP:THREE quite nicely and the others I looked at are good. Cunard is a Wikipedia treasure. Hobit (talk) 15:04, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion, and mainspace the new draft that is very different to the deleted page. WP:TNT has been done. SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:00, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comments. Closers are meant to evaluate the quality of the arguments presented in the afd. Arguments that they guess !voters may have thought or considered are not presented in the afd so should not be part of the evaluation process. Adding their own imaginations (as the closer has told us they did) is essentially a supervote.
AFDs are meant to be discussions. How are we meant to make counter discussion to points that have not been put. How are we meant to know what others are thinking if they don't put it in the discussion. Going by what is not presented in a discussion goes against the whole Idea of a discussion.
Given most of the sources I presented are in also newspapers.com doesn't that really put a huge question mark next to the quality of any claimed and imagined searches that were or were not presented in the afd.
To Quote Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators "If an argument for deletion is that the page lacks sources, but an editor adds the missing references, that argument is no longer relevant." The closer and multiple commentators are ignoring this obviousness and continuing to count those arguments as relevant.
Many of the above talk about the current state of the article. Notability is a property of the subject, not of the current state of the article.
Lesson learned, In future don't bother trying to find sources or improve articles because people routinely ignore sources found during afds and will push for deletion regardless. duffbeerforme (talk) 12:42, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with a lot of that. I always hate people asking me "why didn't you improve the article with the sources you found at AfD?". Any my answer is A) per policy what's in the article isn't relevant and B) you are asking me to fix something you want deleted? Really? That said, links (to newspapers.com or the Internet Archive or something) to sources are important to provide in an AfD. I, in good faith, looked for some of these sources via Google and found nothing. And it's not just "reliable"--"in depth" plays a huge role. If I actually have a link to a source discussed in an AfD I always provide that. I think in this case it would have been enough to avoid this whole thing (or at least I'd hope and expect so). But yes, per IAR and some other things raw counts can sometimes overcome stronger arguments. And that's often a feature--sometimes the rules are wrong. But here it was, IMO, a lot of lazy !voting. Hobit (talk) 12:54, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
I accepted the draft and it is now in mainspace. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:21, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
