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Instructions

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Before listing a review request, please:

  1. Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision.
  2. Check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.

Steps to list a new deletion review

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1.

Click here and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in page with the name of the page, xfd_page with the name of the deletion discussion page (leave blank for speedy deletions), and reason with the reason why the discussion result should be changed. For media files, article is the name of the article where the file was used, and it shouldn't be used for any other page. For example: 

{{subst:drv2
|page=File:Foo.png
|xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png
|article=Foo
|reason=
}} ~~~~
2.

Inform the editor who closed the deletion discussion by adding the following on their user talk page:

{{subst:DRV notice|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~
3.

For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach <noinclude>{{Delrev|date=2024 September 23}}</noinclude> to the top of the page under review to inform current editors about the discussion.

4.

Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion:

  • If the deletion discussion's subpage name is the same as the deletion review's section header, use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 September 23}}</noinclude>
  • If the deletion discussion's subpage name is different from the deletion review's section header, then use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 September 23|page=SECTION HEADER AT THE DELETION REVIEW LOG}}</noinclude>
 

Commenting in a deletion review

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Any editor may express their opinion about an article or file being considered for deletion review. In the deletion review discussion, please type one of the following opinions preceded by an asterisk (*) and surrounded by three apostrophes (''') on either side. If you have additional thoughts to share, you may type this after the opinion. Place four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your entry, which should be placed below the entries of any previous editors:

  • Endorse the original closing decision; or
  • Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
  • List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
  • Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear; or
  • Allow recreation of the page if new information is presented and deemed sufficient to permit recreation.

Examples of opinions for an article that had been deleted:

  • *'''Endorse''' The original closing decision looks like it was sound, no reason shown here to overturn it. ~~~~
  • *'''Relist''' A new discussion at AfD should bring a more thorough discussion, given the new information shown here. ~~~~
  • *'''Allow recreation''' The new information provided looks like it justifies recreation of the article from scratch if there is anyone willing to do the work. ~~~~
  • *'''List''' Article was speedied without discussion, criteria given did not match the problem, full discussion at AfD looks warranted. ~~~~
  • *'''Overturn and merge''' The article is a content fork, should have been merged into existing article on this topic rather than deleted. ~~~~
  • *'''Overturn and userfy''' Needs more development in userspace before being published again, but the subject meets our notability criteria. ~~~~
  • *'''Overturn''' Original deletion decision was not consistent with current policies. ~~~~

Remember that deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate. Deletion review is facilitated by succinct discussions of policies and guidelines; long or repeated arguments are not generally helpful. Rather, editors should set out the key policies and guidelines supporting their preferred outcome.

The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.

Temporary undeletion

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Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}} template, leaving the history for review by everyone. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.

Closing reviews

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A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days, unless the nomination was a proposed deletion. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented.

If the administrator closes the deletion review as no consensus, the outcome should generally be the same as if the decision was endorsed. However:

  • If the decision under appeal was a speedy deletion, the page(s) in question should be restored, as it indicates the deletion was not uncontroversial. The closer, or any editor, may then proceed to nominate the page at the appropriate deletion discussion forum, if they so choose.
  • If the decision under appeal was an XfD close, the closer may, at their discretion, relist the page(s) at the relevant XfD.

Ideally all closes should be made by an administrator to ensure that what is effectively the final appeal is applied consistently and fairly but in cases where the outcome is patently obvious or where a discussion has not been closed in good time it is permissible for a non-admin (ideally a DRV regular) to close discussions. Non-consensus closes should be avoided by non-admins unless they are absolutely unavoidable and the closer is sufficiently experienced at DRV to make that call. (Hint: if you are not sure that you have enough DRV experience then you don't.)

Speedy closes

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  • Objections to a proposed deletion can be processed immediately as though they were a request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion
  • Where the closer of a deletion discussion realizes their close was wrong, and nobody has endorsed, the closer may speedily close as overturn. They should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
  • Where the nominator of a DRV wishes to withdraw their nomination, and nobody else has recommended any outcome other than endorse, the nominator may speedily close as "endorse" (or ask someone else to do so on their behalf).
  • Certain discussions may be closed without result if there is no prospect of success (e.g. disruptive or sockpuppet nominations, if the nominator is repeatedly nominating the same page, or the page is listed at WP:DEEPER). These will usually be marked as "administrative close".

Recent discussions

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14 September 2024

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Alinur Velidedeoğlu (closed)

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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Alinur Velidedeoğlu (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

The only non-vote opinion comes from the nominator, and that does not address all the sources brought up by @Fram in the prior deletion discussion. The article is about a TV/magazine personality, and so many sources are naturally of that nature. But that does not change the fact that those are reliable, secondary and independent. Just to add one, here is another media coverage about him, clearly demonstrating the notability. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 04:52, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update: adding more sources to demonstrate that we have a very clear DRV#3 case here. None of the sources that follow has been considered in the deletion discussion, and all of them are contributing to notability either via the GNG or one of the SNGs such as WP:CREATIVE (some sources may be critical of the subject): [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8] TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 03:58, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:DRV is just about this AFD closure, not the first AFD closure, and nobody in this discussion was arguing for this article to be Kept. I'm sure there were opinions about this article that might not have been expressed during the AFD period. But the closer's obligation is to determine the consensus of the editors who chose to participate in the discussion and given the comments, I don't see how you can argue for a different closure outcome. Liz Read! Talk! 05:40, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Liz Thank you for responding. I have missed this discussion, I would have participated had I seen it when it was open. I was wondering if it would be possible restore the article, or to re-list the nomination? I believe the second deletion nomination statement was not done properly, since it addressed just a small subset of the sources brought up in the prior discussion, and the two delete votes did not elaborate on any of the sources that were brought up there. Thanks in advance. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 06:14, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Unless an article is just blatant advertising, I never have an issue with an editor writing a draft of an article deleted in an AFD, whether this article is restored to Draft space or you take a fresh start (sometimes that is preferable). What we want on Wikipedia are well-referenced articles on notable subjects and if a better version of this article, with better reliable sources, can be produced, then that should be allowed. Liz Read! Talk! 23:51, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse unanimous result. The additional Youtube source presented here by the appellant is just a five minute interview with the subject, and provides nothing in terms of notability. The AfD would have closed the same way had the appellant participated in it. Owen× ☎ 09:09, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I believe that 5 minute NBC segment is more than just an interview, but regardless, my main point was that Fram's excellent outline in the previous discussion, which includes 3 separate issues from Milliyet's printed archive (which they selected among 179 search hits in the newspaper's archive), and non-interview articles by 2 separate Turkish columnists was not considered. The nominator only addressed the weaker ones among the sources presented. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 15:27, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Restore to draft to add the new sources. The close was fine given the information considered, but now there's a reason to change direction and not spend seven days here. Star Mississippi 12:57, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse if this is an appeal of the closure, which was correct. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:44, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Allow Recreation of Draft Robert McClenon (talk) 03:44, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse Undelete to draft (edit: do undelete to draft, in fact). The listed additional sources aren't super helpful in writing an encyclopedia article, but the existence of the mentioned sources points to even more sources existing, which seems worth investigating, and a draft existing during that time doesn't hurt. Edit: My original comment presumed that there is someone who would work on the draft and find and add new, yet-unmentioned (but somewhat likely to exist) sources. But those expectations weren't realistic. —Alalch E. 11:37, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. User:TheJoyfulTentmaker is throwing unimpressive sources. Read WP:THREE. Go to draftspace if you find two or three sources that demonstrate Wikipedia-notability. —-SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:28, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:THREE is an essay, not a guideline. WP:CREATIVE is a guideline, at least sufficient for invoking DRVPURPOSE#3, with these sources, I believe. Also, if someone is a media personality, information about their personal life may become relevant for the encyclopedia. We can't just dismiss those since we don't find them meaningful. Same as we can't dismiss the news that are basically about the movements of a soccer ball, even if some people may think those are not worthy of our time. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 22:58, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    We can dismiss many sources which are otherwise reliable and useful when determining notability. They aren't being dismissed as sources (we can use them in the article to support certain claims, such as about personal life). They are dismissed as evidence of notability. Say... personal life. Divorce news. How does that help determine that the individual is a notable creative professional? Would we not want sources about their creative life, not personal life? Such weak sources only point to a potential for real evidence of notability to exist, but they don't prove notability in themselves. After Fram's comment, such better sources could have found and added to the article, or mentioned in the second AfD. They weren't, and that's why the article was deleted. And it should stay deleted until someone finally digs up two-to-WP:THREE pieces of real and final evidence of eligibility for inclusion ("notability" ... unfortunate term; I mean obviously the subject is somewhat famous but that isn't it). —Alalch E. 08:54, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I respect this perspective, however I have to say it is not P&G compliant. a) Because of WP:NEXIST, it is totally irrelevant whether the sources pointed out by Fram, some of which happen to be offline, were added to the article or not. We have no deadline on Wikipedia. b) Personal life vs. creative life distinction is irrelevant in terms of the guidelines, as long as we have a significant coverage. It is a common fallacy to consider a piece covering their personal life in detail to be non-significant, because these are considered "trivial" matters. Someone can be notable just because their personal life is of broader public interest. c) Regarding the change of vote above: what happens to the draft after it is restored is also irrelevant for the purposes of deletion review. If it is prematurely moved to the main space, another AfD can be started. If the draft is left idle, it will be deleted in 6 months. But those are out of scope. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 15:04, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    But I was mainly commenting from the NEXIST perspective. I was not primarily stating that the sources from which notability can be determined need to edited in but that they need to be identified. The sources that have been identified up to this point are only circumstantial evidence of notability, pointers to notability, but are not evidence of notability. For a WP:DRVPURPOSE#3 undeletion, DRV sould be able to say that "editors formed a consensus to delete, but they lacked knowledge of these important facts, and it's reasonable to asume that their decision, as reasonable AfD participants, would have been different if they hadn't". Editors maybe lacked knowledge of the sources brought up by Fram (maybe not) but it isn't reasonable to assume that their decision would have been different, as notability can't be determined from said sources. The suggestion to add the (yet-unidentified) sources to a hypothetical draft before mainspacing is aligned with the purpose of undeletion to draft: make the content speak for itself so that volunteer time does not need to be spent on an unnecessary and possibly confused discussion. I believed that it could be okay in this case to undelete to draft prior to NEXIST as it seems likely that more and better sources can be found. And only when they are found to mainspace; adding them to the page was peripheral concern. But that is prone to being subverted by moving to mainspace without identifying the sources needed for notability, so I changed my mind. I am not opposed to undeleting straight to mainspace given a credible NEXIST claim. —Alalch E. 19:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Alalch E. Point well taken. But if you don't have a strong objection to undeletion to draft, as you first proposed, I kindly ask an admin to close this early so I can start improving the draft. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 00:58, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Please find one normal WP:SIGCOV source that is not stuff like "he said this and another guy made these ten tweets", "he shared these photos on instragram", "genious advertiser and his ingenious divorce", and "he invented something but we don't know what; let's hope it's something useful". —Alalch E. 01:20, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Alalch E. Here is one, from a business column published in 1993, focusing on his work in advertising and awards: [9]. This one was not available directly online, but you need to search Milliyet's print archives with a free account, although the service has frequent outages. There are dozens of pre-internet newspapers and magazines, but accessing their archives would need one to go to a library. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 16:28, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you. I am not opposed to undeleting to draft, it appears that it is possible to start writing a serious article using it, and if you could find one more source of similar quality, I will not be opposed to having this article in mainspace.—Alalch E. 19:34, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    User:TheJoyfulTentmaker. WP:THREE is an essay yes. This is not about wikilawyering, but fairly simple advice. Read the essay. Ask me on my talk page if there’s something in it you don’t understand.
    It’s fairly obvious to the rest of us that you adhere to some false beliefs. If you’re not interested in advice, then maybe Wikipedia is not for you.
    - SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I looked at Fram’s first three sources and am unimpressed. SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:08, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @SmokeyJoe To get back to the actual discussion here: do you have any objection to having this article restored to draft? If not, could an admin close this early? TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 00:32, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No. If you respect the AfD, then it is quite ok to have it undeleted to draftspace. Do not move it back to mainspace yourself for at least, no matter how fixed you think it is, but instead submit it through AfC. Read and follow the advice at WP:THREE. SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:26, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse delete close and restore as draft. TheJoyfulTentmaker appears interested in improving the deleted version and there may or may not be additional SIGCOV. AFC (not DRV) is the place to evaluate these sources. Worst case, the draft never goes anywhere and is abandoned and G13ed, which is not a big deal at all. Frank Anchor 02:31, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse the AfD but restore to draft - I agree completely with Frank Anchor here. SportingFlyer T·C 22:13, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse and restore as draft. The closer clearly correctly assessed three policy based votes to delete based on lack of sourcing, but if the article in draft can be shown to be notable with better sourcing then everyone wins. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:05, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

13 September 2024

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Global Credit Data (closed)

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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Global Credit Data (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Incorrect interpretation of consensus Hentheden (talk) 20:09, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Overturn In the closing decision, the admin OwenX suggested that there was a "rough P&G consensus to delete". The discussion reflects rather a lack of consensus, the result of which should have been to keep per WP:NOCON. More recently, the organisation has received further coverage in government sources, being discussed as an authoritative source in a Bank of England policy document. Hentheden (talk) 20:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (involved): The keep !votes were not based on policies or guidelines. There was no identification of WP:SIRS, which is required by NCORP, and many of the keep !votes amounted to WP:IKNOWIT and that its notability should be inherited from its members and the fact that prominent organizations use their research. Several keep !votes were bare "meets GNG" and did not engage with Oaktree b's source analysis. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:59, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak endorse (uninvolved): I could see discounting four or five of the seven "keep" !votes, but two (Eastmain's and Malinaccier's) were based either on sources they added to the article (I can't see what Eastmain added) or on an assessment, however brief, of relevant sources, not on mere assertions. That said, there were four stronger "deletes" (plus a weak nomination statement) against two reasonably strong "keeps," and that's a rough consensus. Dclemens1971 (talk) 02:16, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Eastmain added 1 2 3 4 all to the first sentence (same numbering as in Oaktree b's comment at afd, and they also mentioned #2); and 5 and a second (third, if you count #5) copy of 6 to External Links. —Cryptic 18:25, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. The arguments to delete were just better. The deletion was strongly trending delete before the second and third relist, and after the third relist an overview of the sources was given, asserting that they are not of sufficient quality to support an article about an organization. Instead of meaningfully countering that, it was then claimed that the subject is not a company but an organization and that it has dealings with the worlds biggest banks etc., all of which is discountable argumentation.—Alalch E. 00:01, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Endorse - The question is not whether each of the reviewers at DRV agrees with the weighting by the closer, but whether the weighting by the closer, and discounting of Keep !votes, was a valid judgment by the closer. It was, but just barely. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:51, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Canvassed non-confirmed editors prior to semi-protection, part 1. Daniel (talk) 17:53, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn:Regardless of the process taken, the notability of this association is its uniqueness as a data source for academics and government researchers. The association allows access to its data by univerisity accredited economics and finance researchers seeking to understand how banks can stop making bad decsions. Banking regulators like the European Central Bank, the Bank of England and the US Fed use the data and analytics to set regulatory levels, so the better know the data source is the more widely it will be used as a "truth based" decision source. A wikipedia listing gives a quick reference to potential users and a factual record of how and why the data has been collected. The alternative is to just leave it to Google Scholar and google search, which would be second best Philthebanker (talk) 06:50, 16 September 2024 (UTC)— Philthebanker (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • Overturn Global Credit Data (GCD) is a notable association that collaborates with some of the largest banks globally, as well as regulators, financial consultants, and key players in the financial industry. It is a respected source of credit risk data, with its publications frequently used in academic research by top universities. GCD has a clear impact on the financial sector, and its work is widely cited in both professional and educational settings. There are numerous reliable, independent sources documenting GCD’s contributions, establishing its notability under Wikipedia's guidelines. Furthermore, as a non-profit working for the benefit of the industry, not allowing this page would unfairly limit the availability of important information in this space. The article is being actively improved to meet Wikipedia's content standards. Deletion would remove valuable content relevant to professionals, researchers, and institutions and those who rely on Wikipedia for such information. 13:04, 16 September 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by HalleyCA2015 (talk • contribs) — Note: An editor has expressed a concern that HalleyCA2015 (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion.
  • OverturnAs a Risk Trade Expert with extensive experience across various banks, I have been closely following the ICC Trade Register, published annually by the International Chamber of Commerce, for many years. The insights derived from the Global Credit Database on Loss Given Default (LGD) and Credit Conversion Factors (CCF) in trade instruments shown in the report have significantly impacted the industry practices thanks to the data collected and the work done by this unique member driven organization. For further reference, please see the recent publication by the Bank of England: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/prudential-regulation/publication/2024/september/implementation-of-the-basel-3-1-standards-near-final-policy-statement-part-2 .Risktrademike (talk) 08:19, 16 September 2024 (UTC)— Risktrademike (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Canvassed non-confirmed editors prior to semi-protection, part 2. Daniel (talk) 17:53, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn I am an experienced professional in quantitative credit risk, with a long-standing career in the banking sector. Nearly six years ago, I became acquainted with the Global Credit Data (GCD), and since then, I have actively utilized it in my work. GCD offers a unique and comprehensive collection of defaulted credit data for non-retail sectors, which is invaluable for the benchmarking, as well as conducting both quantitative and qualitative analyses. Furthermore, the community that GCD brings together fosters networking and collaboration among professionals in the credit risk field. — Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Deniss Alex (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion.
  • Overturn. Globalcreditdata ( GCD ) is an organization that provides help to its members in the credit risk department. The work they do and the quality is high. They also provide data to many academics to help them in their researches. I've been working with them for a little bit less than 10 years now. Tophe1984 (talk) 14:48, 16 September 2024 (UTC) — Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Tophe1984 (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion. [reply]
  • Endorse DRV is not round 2 of AFD. It is an opportunity to determine whether the closer interpreted consensus correctly. I think the closer did a good job explaining why the keep comments were largely not based on policy. No one really addressed the comments by HighKing and Oaktree about the quality and independence of the existing sources, or that coverage about a product does not equate to coverage of the company. --Enos733 (talk) 15:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. Properly deleted, although pointing to WP:CORP upfront may have helped dissuade the weak WP:MEAT efforts. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:46, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. Closer interpreted consensus clearly and correctly. Delete !votes cited policy more effectively than did the keeps.
P.S. The DRV request is flimsy at best. Those requesting review need to make their cases in order to keep from wasting so many people's time and effort, starting with their own. Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 23:09, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

11 September 2024

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Koi Mil Gaya 3

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Koi Mil Gaya 3 (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
Koi... Mil Gaya 3 (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

These rds were deleted per Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 24#Koi Mil Gaya 3, the result was mostly due to non-participation by anyone else beyond the nominator and the non-partipicipation also resulted due to the fact that three very similar rds were incorrectly split into separate noms. The actual discussions took place at the other two: Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 31#Krish 1 and Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 31#Koi Mil Gaya 2 both of which consider the same film series and both of which passed (these discussions also revolved around around our current DRVs Koi... Mil Gaya 3 and Koi Mil Gaya 3), I would have commented at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 24#Koi Mil Gaya 3 and linked to the latter discussions but was unaware of the separate listing for the third film in the series. To only delete redirects for this film from the series would appear unfair in light of these discussions. Please read the discussions and see if these rds should be restored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gotitbro (talk • contribs) 15:40, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you say that the nominations were incorrectly split? It is up to the nom to split the entries as per his rationale. Sometimes others do bundle them if they observe duplication, and see benefit in a bundled nomination. No one did so in this case, as I would believe the nominations were split evenly as 1, 2 and 3 ending titles.
From what I see, the closer chose to delete Koi Mil Gaya 3, but relisted Koi Mil Gaya 2, even though both had zero participation, because of page histories of other (Krrish) entries of the bulk nomination. All entries of that bulk nomination ended as kept based on strength of the Krrish entries. For Koi Mil Gaya 2, there was one vote in favour and one against (by the nom), but I would believe the closer went with keep as an ATD because of less participation.
The deletion was fine as a standard no-opposition close. The closer Explicit used to treat such closes as soft deletes that are open to reversal, so it should be straightforward to undelete and relist if that is the opinion. Jay 💬 08:30, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I had made a collated comment at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 31#Krish 1 for all of those discussions. You are right I was notified of one of the listings (Koi Mil Gaya 3). By being unaware I meant that I did not know it was being treated separately and would not be relisted (similar to the 2nd and 1st films) despite my comment at the Krish 1 entry, saying that I am making a reply for all of these listings. I now realize that it is up to the closer to decide to relist and separate listings are treated separately and it was my mistake in not making a comment at the other two entries linking my comment and rationale from Krish 1. Gotitbro (talk) 15:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is fair to assume that when Explicit deleted the third and relisted the second, he may not even have been aware of the first set of entries, or the collated discussion, as it was already relisted 3 hours prior by another relister CycloneYoris. Nor did the nomination statements of 2 and 3 have a backlink to 1. Jay 💬 16:35, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

10 September 2024

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SureAI (closed)

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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
SureAI (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

In a close that I cannot fathom, Ritchie333 closed this as "merge". Half (6) argued for a keep, 2 argued for a merge, a minority (4) argued for deletion. Ritchie says that the deletion refuted the keeps, therefore merge has consensus, but I fail to see refutations. People disagreed, some considering the existing sources sufficient, others not. Even if you don't 'count' votes, I can't see how this is anything but a standard no consensus close. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} — Preceding undated comment added 22:32, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse. The Delete and the Merge !votes there carry far more P&G weight than the various flavours of Keep. There was no specific consensus to Merge, but I agree with how the closer phrased it: the "merge" option suggested by some seemed to be the option that I felt most people who expressed a view could live with. Sometimes it's better to pick the outcome that the fewest would find objectionable than to just throw your hands in the air and do nothing with a "No consensus" close. I'm glad we have admins like Ritchie333 who have the resourcefulness and BOLDness to put aside the nose-counting, and find a solution that best reflects the preferences of participants, as supported by P&G. Owen× ☎ 23:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to no consensus, since there wasn't one.—S Marshall T/C 11:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to no consensus. I see an even split between keep and delete/ATD votes, both in number and strength. The keep side provided several sources of content which I do not believe were fully disputed by the delete/ATD side. The closing statement reads to me as a forced-compromise WP:SUPERVOTE. A second relist would be an okay option as well, but I do not see consensus forming with further discussion. Frank Anchor 14:17, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I can see your point about a forced compromise, but see no evidence of a supervote. Everything suggests that Ritchie was genuinely trying to find a way to close the AfD in the least contentious manner, without injecting his own views on the article or its sourcing. A forced compromise isn't necessarily a bad thing; we often use those when resolving editorial disputes. Owen× ☎ 17:37, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Forced compromise is listed as a a type of supervote. A discussion has drawn to a close, with or without a clear outcome. It is supervoting to close in favor of an undiscussed or unfavored compromise idea, which may satisfy no one. If a discussion did not come to a consensus. Obviously merge was not "undiscussed," but in my opinion there was no consensus and a merge close was chosen as the “middle-ground” Frank Anchor 21:54, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it was indeed chosen as a middle-ground. But it was specifically chosen as a favoured idea to satisfy the most participants, which is not what the WP:SPV essay is talking about. If AfD used some kind of runoff voting system, Merge would be the outcome here, supported by more participants than a No consensus. Owen× ☎ 22:31, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • To be clear, "no consensus" was my second (and only other) choice. However, I felt the "merge" comments, particularly the closing one from HighKing, were strong and persuasive. The nominator, IgelRM, also suggested a merge. I'd also add that a NC close implies no prejudice against renomination (which may end up as "delete" - at least one editor observed the criteria for WP:CORP had been tightened up), whereas a merge can be expanded out at a later date if more sources are written. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:38, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse Merge was not only an acceptable option, it was specifically discussed as being okay in the discussion itself. No consensus is not a catch all for when there are issues with sourcing that haven't been rebutted, especially when NCORP is involved. SportingFlyer T·C 20:02, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The keeps specifically addressed NCORP. So did the deletes. None came to agreement with regards to whether or not sourcing met NCORP, with many feeling it did not apply because the point of NCORP was to prevent spammy ad-like creations, which this specifically was not. There is no consensus for a merge. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 22:20, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (involved as I supported Merge at the AfD). By the numbers this is "No Consensus". I count 4 Delete, 2 Merge, and 5 Keeps. However, two of the Keeps do not cite sources and just gush about how great and notable their mods are. These comments should be given less weight because nobility is not inherited; makers of notable things are not automatically notable. Two of the Keeps list sources but don't explain why they meet WP:NCORP; they are good comments but not great. All four Delete comments contain at least some source analysis explaining that most of the sources in the article or linked in the AfD as really about Enderal (or occasionally another mod) and provide only passing coverage of the studio. Thus strength of argument seemingly favors Delete. But given that two comments argued for a Merge and that Delete is not a slam dunk (there are easily enough sources to meet WP:V and enough to meet WP:NCORP can be subjective) a merge is an excellent option as an ATD. It isn't an obvious consensus since it was only a minority "vote", but it is a compromise that addresses both sides primary concerns. I.e. The sources are not really sufficient for the current reading of NCORP, but this is an important in it's niche company that shouldn't be a red-link. In particular I believe that AfD's with this configuration of arguments (i.e. Delete stronger than Keep but not a clear consensus with a clear suggestion of a Merge target with no articulated objection) should be closed as Merge even if I myself happened to favor keeping or deleting the article for whatever reason. Eluchil404 (talk) 21:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. I agree with the reading of the discussion as “merge”. If the merge doesn’t happen, it falls back to “no consensus” leaning “redirect”, not leaning “keep”. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:56, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse per above. Hurricane Clyde 🌀my talk page! 03:27, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Hurricane Clyde: I have again fixed your formatting to comply with DRV conventions. Secondly, can you please elaborate on this — which part of "per above" are you endorsing based on? DRV, more than anywhere else, needs nuanced commentary rather than "per X" voting, which adds very little to the discussion. Daniel (talk) 21:46, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

List of Sanskrit authors from lower communities (closed)

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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
List of Sanskrit authors from lower communities (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

This article was deleted without any strong reason. The article was well written and well sourced with no inaccuracies reported yet. The reason was said to be unnotability but it's clear that Lists that fulfill recognized informational, navigation, or development purposes often are kept regardless of any demonstrated notability. It was also said to be original research. While various references were provided and those facts are present in other Wikipedia articles too. It was said that lower communities is ambiguous but It includes last two (Vaishyas and shudras.) It seems to be deleted without any substantial reason. Mohit Dokania (talk) 11:13, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse. The list was deleted for very valid reasons, well expressed by Fram and Jeraxmoira at the AfD. The appellant has not demonstrated why this seemingly arbitrary list selection criterion meets WP:LISTCRIT, which states, Avoid original or arbitrary criteria that would synthesize a list that is not plainly verifiable in reliable sources.. I would have been just as happy with a Redirect to Sanskrit literature, but the consensus to delete was clear. Owen× ☎ 13:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The sources cited are reliable. They contain easily accessable links to printed books by reputed authors and publishers. If any particular entry is disputed It can be challenged in talk page by citing other sources but deleting a list which have reliable citations shouldn't be the way to go. Mohit Dokania (talk) 08:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse: the original closing decision. The list of authors are not discussed together in reliable sources and DRV is not an extension of AfD. Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 06:55, 11 September 2024 (UTC)(Involved in the AfD) [reply]
    The proposed list of Sanskrit authors from lower communities is significant as it challenges the notion that only high-caste individuals contributed to Sanskrit literature. By highlighting these authors, the list reveals the rich diversity within the tradition and underscores the meaningful contributions of marginalized voices. Their works reflect unique perspectives on social justice and identity, enriching our understanding of Sanskrit heritage and promoting a more equitable narrative that honors the contributions of all communities. Mohit Dokania (talk) 08:26, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This sounds like a case of WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Mohit Dokania, I respect your attempt to dispel the misconception about the paucity of lower caste Sanskrit authors, but Wikipedia isn't the place to do this. For a list to meet our inclusion standards, it's not enough that individual items in it are covered by reliable sources. The grouping of those items into a distinct list must be supported by the sources. Owen× ☎ 09:52, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the basic problem is "lower communities" in the title. What we actually need is to review any scholarly papers about this topic and see what the academics say about the relationship between written Sanskrit, caste, and socioeconomic class.—S Marshall T/C 11:24, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Please don't confuse lower social hierarchy with individual inferiority. It's like hierarchy in a company where a CEO could be a horrible person even when high in hierarchy and a sweeper could be a brilliant person even when lower in hierarchy. It's clearly listed in varna hierarchy. It's discussed at many places see It's discussed in this research paper and many others. Mohit Dokania (talk) 12:13, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, thank you, I do understand the distinction between a person's class and their worth. Here in Britain, some hereditary aristocrats are ghastly human beings and some third-generation council house tenants are lovely; and I'm sure that's the same everywhere else in the world too. I don't think there's any confusion there. What is confusing is that Wikipedia's category system thinks there are 411 castes, with 39 subcategories. Please could you say which of these you meant by "lower communities"? You don't seem to mean Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes.—S Marshall T/C 13:58, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's modern artificial categorisation for vote bank politics. I am talking about traditional classification of jāti and it's not exactly same as caste. Mohit Dokania (talk) 09:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Aha! Thanks, that's helpful. Is our Wikipedia article on jāti accurate?—S Marshall T/C 11:48, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    not very well written but good for basic idea. It should have more mentions from first hand Sanskrit sources, that is our shastras Mohit Dokania (talk) 12:53, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    So this list was taking the Shudras as a jāti rather than as a varna. You meant people like Matsyendranatha and Narayana Guru?—S Marshall T/C 18:56, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Jāti is a subcategory of Varna resulting from cross-breeding between varnas. Occupation is designated according to Jāti.
    Shudra is a varna with many Jātis in it. Mohit Dokania (talk) 09:31, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay... in that case I can't see what's wrong with the close we're reviewing.—S Marshall T/C 11:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Technically, the relationship between written Sanskrit, caste, and socioeconomic class is discussed in Sanskritisation (but it isn't about the creation of new literature). —Alalch E. 11:57, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This is more of a western perspective on the phenomenon . In our words, propoganda. The tribal and regional cultures have all sprouted from the same hinduism. Distorting, reaffirming shastric traditions or discarding it are all possibilities. Mohit Dokania (talk) 12:59, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse - DRV is not AFD round 2. The appellant says: This article was deleted without any strong reason. No, the consensus of the AFD was the reason. The appellant is disagreeing with the reasoning of the the AFD nominator and the AFD participants, but that is not what DRV is for. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. The strong reason to delete was editors agreeing that the page did not meet stand-alone list eligibility criteria, including the concern that the list was assembled through the forbidden combining of material from multiple sources to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.—Alalch E. 20:44, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Individual items needn't be found together in a single source. However, It's discussed together [here. https://satyan-sharma.medium.com/lest-we-forget-sanskritists-situated-at-the-bottom-of-caste-hierarchy-ac2c29159da9?source=social.tw] Mohit Dokania (talk) 09:14, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Medium is near-forbidden on Wikipedia, as a deprecated source (see WP:MEDIUM), but the author appears to be a subject-matter expert and is discussing a topic within his expertise. Still, there is no editorial oversight. This is at the very bottom of what we could treat as a reliable secondary source. Multiple reliable sources would be needed, and maybe in a group of such sources could this Medium post contribute to a determination that the list topic is notable. —Alalch E. 11:25, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

Trillionaire (closed)

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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Trillionaire (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Given the recent news that Elon Musk could become the first trillionaire by 2027, I think that we should allow for the "Trillionaire" article (the deleted one, not the current disambiguation page) to be restored as a draft at Draft:Trillionaire as it would now look promising. GTrang (talk) 02:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Closer's comment: The AfD was closed as "delete" because the article read like a dictionary entry. Musk becoming a trillionaire would not change that. But all are free to recreate the article once the concept of "trillionaire" is covered by reliable sources in sufficient depth for us to write an article about it that goes beyond a dictionary definition. It is not apparent from this review request, which cites no sources, that this is now the case. Sandstein 06:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. There is nothing to suggest that there is anything to write at this title which will be more than a dicdef. Stifle (talk) 08:17, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The appellant doesn't need our permission to submit a new draft to AfC, but someone possibly becoming a trillionaire in three years is hardly a reason to create an encyclopedic entry. The original close was fine. Owen× ☎ 13:16, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • No action. If Mr. Musk (or another person) eventually becomes widely known as becoming the first trillionaire, then we can have a discussion to add a link to his page into the DAB at that time. There is certainly nothing to do now. Frank Anchor 14:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse or do nothing, as per above comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:02, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • No action (keep deleted). There is a noticeable absence of evidence that there is something to write about. I don't think that the page should be undeleted. The content was stated to be non-compliant with policy. When there is something to write about as may be evidenced in the sources, please write something that is policy compliant (which will have became doable by then). The close of the AfD has not been challenged and it speaks for itself so it doesn't seem like endorsing it has real meaning.—Alalch E. 20:30, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist – I think maybe on this one we should go back through AfD on this.
    Hurricane Clyde 🌀my talk page! 03:29, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Why? Stifle (talk) 08:53, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Hurricane Clyde, do you think there was much doubt in the participants' arguments that would warrant a relist years later? The outcome looks pretty clear to me. Plus, why are you adding additional indents to your comment? Liz Read! Talk! 05:55, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Maybe wait a year or two on the relist; but my rationale is the fact that sources are apparently saying that Elon Musk could become a trillionaire by 2027; which my my calculations is only about three years from now. As for the indent, it was just a mistake and it has been fixed now. Hurricane Clyde 🌀my talk page! 16:04, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      By waiting a year or two (or three) on the relist, do you mean having a new Articles for Deletion discussion in 1/2/3 years? If you would like more discussing to happen in AfD, that can't happen in the discussion that this deletion review links to, because that discussion concluded with a consensus to do something, and relisting isn't for that. A new AfD is possible if there is an article and someone nominates it for deletion. So 1/2/3 years in the future (or sooner) someone could create an article about this topic again and it could be nominated for deletion. That's something that can simply happen all on its own, and Deletion review doesn't have a say in it. Recreation is possible, as nothing prevents it. When you think that it's a good time to write about this because there are sufficient sources for an encyclopedia article, you can just write the article, and maybe no one will even nominate it for deletion. —Alalch E. 17:53, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

9 September 2024

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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Arild Andersen (footballer) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I am invoking WP:DRVPURPOSE#3. This was deleted for failing two guidelines, one that doesn't exist anymore as well as GNG. I have now done an initial search to located 21 press articles that contribute towards GNG. These are now saved to my hard drive, in anticipation of this page being restored to draft space or user space, so I'm able to build a real encyclopedic article from those (and more that are coming later) sources. I have tried contacting the closer, who seems to be absent since July, so here we are. Geschichte (talk) 10:27, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arild Andersen
Personal information
Date of birth (1972-01-09) 9 January 1972 (age 52)
Place of birth Bergen, Norway
Height 1.79 m (5 ft 10 in)
Position(s) Defender
Senior career*
Years Team Apps (Gls)
Sandviken
Fyllingen
Sogndal
Haugesund
Managerial career
Avaldsnes
*Club domestic league appearances and goals
  • Comment: since we don't have access to your hard drive, can you please cite three of those 21 sources that you believe prove notability per GNG? Thanks! Owen× ☎ 10:44, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Here are some, though it might leave editors none the wiser. The search was conducted in the nb.no database, where you get 85,000 hits for his name, and have to sift out everything relating to the the musician.
    • Sternhoff, Eva M. (27 October 2001). "Fra spetakkel til spektakulær". Haugesunds Avis (in Norwegian).
    • Svenningsen, Kenneth (11 March 1997). "Har lagt Sogndal for sine føtter". Sydvesten (in Norwegian).
    • Yttri, Tor (29 September 1998). "Sa ja til Sogndal – og ja til Haugesund". Sogn Avis (in Norwegian).
  • Refund to draftspace. While I see no fault in how the AfD was closed 3.5 years ago, I trust the appellant's good judgement on this. Geschichte is certainly experienced enough to skip AfC and decide when to move the article back to mainspace. Let's not stand in their way just because of that poorly-attended AfD. Owen× ☎ 15:21, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • As OwenX alludes to, you can just recreate an article when you can address all its reasons for deletion, and by the sound of it you can here - you don't need DRV's permission unless it's salted or someone G4s it. We can give you the deleted version, but if you expect it to help, you're going to be disappointed: besides now being three and a half years out of date, it was an infobox and four sentences of prose that could've been written entirely from looking at the infobox. I've pasted it here. —Cryptic 15:52, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refund to Draftspace - I wonder whether DRV Purpose 3 should come to DRV except in contentious cases, and this is not a contentious case. Recreators may normally either submit a draft for review or move the draft to mainspace subject to AFD. But if REFUND said come to DRV, then DRV can say Refund. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:59, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - If this is restored, either an additional hatnote will be needed on Arild Andersen (the musician) or Arild Andersen (disambiguation) will be needed. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:59, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • No action is needed considering what Cryptic wrote. Good luck with the new article.—Alalch E. 19:31, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
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